Why does KAM not require Full Time Mashgiach?

What's so complex about saying - 
"Kosher Australia ensures all such establishments have a full time Mashgiach."?
Unless they actually do not require such establishments to employ a full time Mashgiach.

​Kosher Australia 
Hi, you have many questions and the answers are quite complex. Kosher Australia feels that facebook is not the place to discuss this. If you're interested in an answer, we invite you into our office to discuss or to give us a call on 83172502.

REALLY?? 

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The gist of the discussion

Vadim Chelom
January 9 2015

I was banned from Kosher Australia Facebook group for asking one question: Why ... do they not insist on a full time mashgeach at food establishments like ....

according to halacha the Mashgiach is essential in a situation where there may be a temptation and an opportunity to substitute products for a non-kosher alternative.
In a vegetarian store for example the risk is fairly low, because the non kosher alternatives are more expensive anyway, so a permanent Mashgiach may not be necessary. But in a place providing meat or cheese the risk is very high, the price difference between kosher and not kosher is very significant.
Without a full time permanent Mashgiach its impossible to verify that it's Kosher. 

Halacha does not accept the validation of someone who is not observant.

It is not at all difficult to make substitutions with a Mashgiach who randomly pops in to inspect. I worked as a Mashgiach and I know.

Diane Katz 
It actually makes one a bit suspicious that there isn't a Mashgiach.
Some years ago I caught a a Kosher certified shop - without a full time Mashgiach - with a non-Kosher certified brand of tuna. I was told that check before using it. Yeah, right. She bought it because it was cheap.

Vadim Chelom 
Some years ago, a terrible disclosure of a very Frum man in Montsey who for many years was selling non-Kosher chickens as Kosher.

Naftoli Biber 
Vadim, I think Kosher Australia has a policy that the Mashgiach is a "yotze venichnas" which essentially means spot checks are randomly made. While this is obviously not the best in most cases it would be expensive to have a full time Mashgiach. 

Benjamin Kessly 
I used to work for KA NSW and the restaurants had no access to the meat until the Mashgiach arrived, the meat was refrigerated under lock and key.

Vadim Chelom 
Naftoli Biber, 'yotzi venichnas' applies to when the Mashgiach is just outside. The Sulhan Aruch describes someone with his head under the counter able to lift it up at any moment.


Natalee Elimelech Nahoom 
Vadim, you're post is very disturbing.
Firstly, Laffa Bar has had a full time Mashgiah from day 1 of business and still does Secondly, before posting such implications, I suggest you do your research properly and not post false allegations.

Natalee Elimelech Nahoom, I was banned from Kosher Australia page for asking questions to which you seem to have all the answers. Maybe Kosher Australia could speak for themselves.

Diane Katz 
Well it's nice to know that the Laffa Bar (which I love) has a full time Mashgiach. But why couldn't KA just have told Vadim like he said, instead of banning him?

Vadim Chelom 
This is the queue for Kosher Australia, who is the administrator of this group to join in and clarify whether they have a full time Mashgiach at
Lafa Bar,
Off the Hook
Sandwich Bar

Kosher Australia 
Hi Vadim Chelom, it appears that you have many questions and the answers are quite complex. Kosher Australia feels that facebook is not the place to discuss this. However, if you're interested in an answer, we invite you into our office to discuss or to give us a call on 83172502.

Jocelyn Lowinger 
Hi Kosher Australia - I think it would be a good idea to answer these questions publicly not just at a one-on-one meeting with Vadim Chelom. Clearly there is confusion amongst Kosher consumers and we all would benefit from clarification.

We live in a world of transparency, and given we all must pay to access the list, it seems entirely appropriate to be transparent and clear about these policies. Thank you

Julia Lindner 
well said Jocelyn i would be incredibly interested to hear the response to this

Ester F Weiss 
Fantastic, this should be an open forum... and not inbox

Vadim Chelom 
I will repeat once again - I have been informed that Lafa Bar doesn't have a full time Mashgiach. If this is incorrect, I invite Kosher Australia to correct me.

Naomi Alba 
Hi Zev. I think that in the case of Off The Hook etc. it's probably acceptable, as they are Pareve and Halavi respectively.
I was terribly distressed to think that Laffa Bar does not have a full-time Mashgiach, and am comforted by the assurance that they do.

Hopefully this will be confirmed by Kosher Australia very soon.

Vadim Chelom 
Naomi Alba, actually Off the Hook is a big problem. Non kosher fish (ie. Flake) is much, much cheaper to use in fish-and-chips then Kosher fish. There is high risk of substitution - this is a well known problem in the industry at large, much more so when Kosher is concerned. Savion uses cheese - again massive mark up for Kosher product. Falafel Omisi is less of a problem - vegetarian products only.

Chava Josephsohn 
I've been a few times to Laffa Bar and I've never seen a Mashgiach there.

I agree with Vadim Chelom.
BTW, I asked exactly the same question of KA, but never got an answer, I didn't specify an establishment like you did, only spoke in general terms.

Vadim Chelom 
Diane, Kosher Australia could end this discussion right now by openly stating their policy regarding full time Mashgiach at food establishments.

It appears that KA may not be used to open discussion.

I have no interest in this debate at all, other than to see this communal organization accountable to the community.

Vadim Chelom  January 9 2015

I was banned from Kosher Australia Facebook group for asking one question: Why, if Kosher Australia insist on the stricter standard of inspecting every factory they approve, do they not insist on a full time mashgeach at food establishments like Lafa Bar? It seemed hypocritical to me to insist on one strict standard and not another. For asking this question I was banned from the group. Maybe more people should be asking.

Diane Katz  
Really? I didn't know that was allowed? I thought nearly every place needed a full time mashgiach, regardless. Feel pretty confident about the kashrut of the Laffa bar, though.

Vadim Chelom  
Diane Katz, according to halacha the presence of the moshgeach is essential in a situation where there may be a temptation and an opportunity to substitute products for a non-kosher alternative. In a vegetarian store for example the risk is fairly low, because the non kosher alternatives are more expensive anyway, so a permanent mashgeach may not be necessary. But in a place like Lafa Bar the risk is very high, because the price difference between kosher and not kosher meat is over 200%. So the permanent mashgeach is absolutely essential. I know the owner of Lafa Bar personally. He is a lovely guy, very friendly and completely nonobservant. You feel very confident about kashrus at Lafa Bar, I don't feel so confident.

Diane Katz 
Understood, Vadim. Just because you're unobservant doesn't mean you're unethical. And also it would be too easy to get caught. But I agree there should be a full time mashgiach.
 
Vadim Chelom  
Diane Katz, this isn't my personal judgment. These are parameters of halacha. An observant (shomer Shabbos technically) person is trusted in the matters of kashrus, a non observant person is not. That's halacha. On the subject of getting caught, it would be very easy not to get caught actually. Believe me, I worked as a moshgeach and I know.

Diane Katz 
It actually makes one a bit suspicious that there isn't a mashgiach. I even caught someone out about 10 years ago when that person didn't have a full time mashgiach in attendance. I questioned why she had a particular brand of tuna with her. She said she was going to check on the list before she used it. Yeah, right. She bought it because it was cheap.

Vadim Chelom 
Four years ago there was a case in Montsey of a business substituting non kosher chickens for kosher ones. They were doing it for years! Nothing in the kosher business has changed since then. It could be happening right now and we wouldn't know.

Naftoli Biber 
Vadim, I'm not sure that there is a difference halachically with regards to whether the owner is observant or not but I may be wrong.
I think Kosher Australia has a policy that the mashgiach is a "yotze venichnas" which essentially means that he does spot checks and can visit at at time. While this is obviously not the best in most cases it would be expensive to have a full time mashgiach. 
In any case it is most strange that they would ban you for asking a question!

Benjamin Kessly 
I never realised there was no mashgiach. That is a halachic problem. I used to work for KA NSW and the restaurants were not allowed to cook any meat until the mashgiach arrived, the meat was refrigerated under lock and key.

Benjamin Kessly 
Another question: if they insist on such high standards, why is the red meat under Kosher Australia not "Beth Yosef". Us sephardim can't eat the red meat in Melbourne (technically ashkenazim as well!!!)

Vadim Chelom 
Naftoli Biber, 'yotzi venichnas' applies to when the moshgeach is just outside reach. The Sulhan Aruch uses an example of someone with his head under the counter able to lift it up at any moment. This is not the case with Lafa Bar. Your second point is about the cost - this is precisely where I feel the hypocrisy is: Kosher Australia insists on having free access to every factory they approve - even for toothpaste and breakfast serial, where the risk of substitution is tiny. But the bend halacha on the issue of kosher meat.

Vadim Chelom 
Benjamin Kessly, Kosher NSW is an example of a kashrus agency which is sensible and consistent. They are lenient where leniencies are appropriate, such as with soft drinks, and strict where strictness is necessary, such as with meat. This can not be said about Kosher Australia.

Diane Katz 
Benjamin, can you please explain 'Beth Yosef '?

David Trakhtman 
If you have to employ full time mashgiach, which is say at least 50-60k a year, small kosher businesses might not be able to survive. Unfortunately, there are so many other nuisances with kosher food business. This one will only add another one. Something to think about

Diane Katz 
Why can't the mashgiach also be a cook? That would alleviate some of the costs.

Vadim Chelom 
David Trakhtman, you are absolutely right. But my question wasn't about cost. It was about consistency. Kosher Australia claims a higher kashrus standard. They use this argument often to distinguish themselves from others. But their high standard is selective. And can be bought for a price. This is wrong.

David Trakhtman 
I will be putting out an article that addresses all the issues of kosher establishment's sustainability and why it's very difficult to survive for a kosher food business in a place like Melbourne. We're still small niche market, and that is why the cost of a full time mashgiach is detrimental for a small business. Hence, it is my assumption, based on many factors, that it is more about prohibitive costs rather then halachic issue

David Trakhtman 
The other alternative is not to have kosher restaurant at all

David Trakhtman 
And yes, ideally, it would be good to have shomer shabbos chef/cook/kitchen hand in the restaurant. The problem is, there are scarce and rare to find (speaking from my own experience)

Diane Katz 
I still think that kosher chicken especially is more expensive than it needs to be. Unfortunately a certain company has a monopoly on the poultry business.

Vadim Chelom 
Diane Katz, glad you asked. Someone is trying to do something about that - Kosher Veyosher.

Diane Katz 
Really? Tell me more, Vadim.

Natalee Elimelech Nahoom 
Vadim, you're post is very disturbing. You said you personally know the owner of Laffa Bar and that he is non-observant and for this reason you would not trust the kashrut. Firstly, Laffa Bar has had a full time Mashgiah from day 1 of business and still does and if you really knew him you would also know that he would never do Nythingnot according to Halacha and Kosher Australia Guidance. Secondly, before posting such implications, I suggest you do your research properly and not post false allegations. I am sure you know what defamation means and the common law consequences of it.

Vadim Chelom 
Are you threatening me Natalee Elimelech Nahoom? I am not afraid of Kosher Australia or of you. This is not you group and you can't shut me up like you did before.

Natalee Elimelech Nahoom 
No one has threatened you nor was I suggesting you aren't entitled to freedom of speech. As I clearly wrote: if you are going to post comments, do your research properly without false allegations. You clearly referred to Laffa Bar and made false implications that Laffa Bar does not have a Mashgiah which is not true.

Vadim Chelom 
Diane Katz, Kosher Veyosher is a kashrus agency of Rebbe Meir Rabi. It is currently in preparation to provide kosher chickens at a price comparable to Free range chickens. You are welcome to contact Rabbi-Meir Rabi directly. He is in Israel now so his reply may be delayed, but what you will get is a genuine answers. 
Natalee Elimelech Nahoom, I was banned from Kosher Australia page for asking questions to which you seem to have all the answers. Maybe Kosher Australia could speak for themselves. And once again - I am not afraid of you and your legal threats will not work.

Natalee Elimelech Nahoom 
I wasn't referring to you being banned from Kosher Australia and once again, you need not fear me. I never indicated you should. I am just making sure you know that Laffa Bar has a full time Mashgiah and that you should not use their name in false allegations. IM not interested in continuing this conversation with you as you don't seem to understand the point I have raised at all. Have a nice week.

Diane Katz 
Ok, that may be problematic because many do not accept the It's Kosher hechsher of Rabbi Rabi. 
Well it's nice to know that the Laffa Bar (which I love) has a full time mashgiach. But why couldn't KA just have told Vadim like he said, instead of banning him? I have a friend who is one of the more rigorous Chabad Rabbis, and has been a mashgiach, and he said he would trust absolutely the owner of the Laffa Bar.

Vadim Chelom 
This is the queue for Kosher Australia, who is the administrator of this group to join in and clarify weather they have a full time mashgeach at Lafa Bar, Off the Hook and Savion. They could also share their policies on factory inspections and which ingredients they found 'problematic' in the foods they refused to approve. And then they could reinstate me to the Ask Kosher Australia Facebook group. Any time now would be great...

Kosher Australia 
Hi Vadim Chelom, it appears that you have many questions and the answers are quite complex. Kosher Australia feels that facebook is not the place to discuss this. However, if you're interested in an answer, we invite you into our office to discuss or to give us a call on 83172502.

Jocelyn Lowinger 
Hi Kosher Australia - I think it would be a good idea to answer these questions publicly not just at a one-on-one meeting withVadim Chelom. Clearly there is confusion amongst the kosher consumers and we all would benefit from clarification. We live in a world of transparency, and given we all must pay to access the list, it seems entirely appropriate to be transparent and clear about these policies. Thank you

Julia Lindner 
well said Jocelyn i would be incredibly interested to hear the response to this

Ester F Weiss 
Fantastic, this should be an open forum... and not inbox

Natalee Elimelech Nahoom 
Yes, this should be an open forum, however using Laffa Bar as an example when Vadim hasn't even sought answers whether we have a Mashgish is just unjust and clear defamation of our business. I am open to all discussions, but I would never try to distroy a reputation without finding out the facts before sending messages on social media. Also, claiming that we would substitute kosher meat for non kosher meat because we are non- observant of the Shabbat is just disgusting and harmful. People like this should be ashamed of themselves. We are no lesser Jewish than you and next time you imply that you personally know us - make sure you are telling the truth. I am seriously upset and cannot express how hurt we are by your words.
Thank you to our Customers who believe and support us.

Vadim Chelom 
I will repeat once again - I have been informed that Lafa Bar doesn't have a full time moshgeach. If this is incorrect, I invite Kosher Australia to correct me and to state their policy openly.

Vadim Chelom 
Natalee Elimelech Nahoom, I don't think it is right of you to discuss the subject without disclosing that you are the co-owner of Lafa Bar.

Vadim Chelom 
I have made this point previously but I think I need to repeat it: My comments are not a personal judgement on the owners of Lafa Bar. However in the view of halacha the testimony of a non-Shomer Shabbos person is not accepted in matters of kashrus.

Ester F Weiss 
Vadim Chelom, accordingly with the Halacha, if you have a full time person that is also a mashgiach, it does not matter how is the owner of the premises .... If you feel that they are not kosher enough for you, you should find a place to fit your Kashrut specification.... I dont know Lafa and dont keep so much kosher so, i have nothing to gain from this discussion other than know whats on, in the Kashrut world. I think you made ur point. The Torah has 70 panim , so this is one of them.... So you made your point, i think she made her point,. There are more important thinks than that....

Naomi Alba 
Hi Zev. I think that in the case of Off The Hook, and possibly also Savion, yotser v'nichnas (spel?) is probably acceptable, as they are pareve and halavi respectively. I was terribly distressed to think that Laffa Bar does not have a full-time mashgiach, and am comforted by Natalee's assertion/assurance that they do. Hopefully this will be confirmed by Kosher Australia very soon 

Vadim Chelom 
Naomi Alba, actually Off the Hook is a big problem. Non kosher fish (ie. Flake) is much, much cheaper to use in fish-and-chips then kosher fish. There is high risk of substitution - this is a well known problem in the industry at large, much more so when kosher is concerned. Savion uses cheese - again massive mark up for kosher consumer. Falafel Omisi is less of a problem - vegetarian products only.

Diane Katz 
Vadim, the cheapest fish on the market is blue grenadier, which is kosher. I don't know about you, but I can easily identify fish by taste and texture. I also think it's unfair for you to assume people will substitute if they think they can get away with it. Kosher Australia have always answered my questions. If you don't feel confident with them, stay home. I trust them. 
I hope you're not trying to undermine KA in order to gather support for Rabbi Rabi. That definitely would be unethical. I hope I'm wrong.

Chava Josephsohn 
I've been a few times to Laffa Bar and I've never seen a mashgiach there. if there was, I don't think friends of one of the guys serving would have been able to go behind the counter and eat with their fingers out of the salad bar and pick their own meat of the spit. I also saw the serving guy lick his fingers before handling food. This isn't a kosher issue, more a major hygiene one, but I don't think this would have happened if a mashgiach was truly there all the time.
I also don't have anything against Laffa, I really like their food, but I agree with Vadim Chelom.
Btw, I asked exactly the same question, but never got an answer, I didn't specify an establishment like you did, only spoke in general terms.

Vadim Chelom 
Diane, Kosher Australia could end this discussion right now by openly stating their policy regarding full time mashgeach presence at food establishments. In the course of this debate I have been called a liar and threatened with legal action for doing nothing more then asking questions. It appears to me that KA may not be used to open debate. Unlike some participants, I have no financial interest in this debate at all, other then to see this communal organization be accountable to the community. What hurts me more then being insulted and threatened here is seeing the rest of the community simply not care.

Diane Katz 
Oy, Chava, that's not nice. I hope Natalee reads your post and makes sure that doesn't happen again. But then I always see chefs on TV tasting with a spoon, then putting the spoon back in the food. Yuk!

Chava Josephsohn 
I know it wasn't one of the owners, but one of their Israeli employees. My husband spoke to the guy who said he had no control over it. I truly have nothing against Laffa, love their food