A Conversation About Kashrus Standards |
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this exchange is from an associate of one of the Kosher certified establishments that I pointed out as having the very serious Kashrus failure of not being monitored by a full time Kosher supervisor. This is a Halachic requirement in any meat establishment which is owned and operated by non-Jews or Jews who are not Shomrei Shabbos. My criticism is not so much of the operators of these establishments as it is of the agency providing the certification. They have betrayed HKBH, His Halacha, their constituents and the proprietors of these establishments. Just wondering whether Babel cafe that was under your supervision a few years back had a full time Mashgiach? Yes they did, I am glad you asked Really? From memory they didn't. Can I ask who it was? Truly! Every gram of meat that went in and out of that shop was accounted for, at first twice daily then as we progressed with our systems, daily. I understand your concerns That doesn't sound like a full time Mashgiach? A full time Mashgiach would infer that someone is there from the time the shop opens until it closes. Well, it is and is utilised by all responsible certifiers, but not those who permit disasters like the Monsey meat scandal and Doheny's in Los Angeles. It is also understood why some will not permit the rabbis to inspect their books So are you saying that you did not have someone there from open until close every day? I said the opposite, we had constant vigilance which was unimpeachable And how do you know what level of supervision applies in the establishments you criticise? Why don't you tell us, since you know what supervision is demanded by KAM and KAS. The info I have disclosed to you was publicly aired and published when I provided my certification for Babell You are the one that has questioned the Kashrus of many establishments in a public forum. I would like to know on what basis? notice how my question is evaded - he will not disclose what checks and balances, monitoring or devices are required to certify his establishment as Kosher. Indeed, the silence and lack of any refutation or response to my protest, signals the sad state of affairs. But I am perfectly willing and in fact prefer to publicly recant and make apologies. Just let me know which meat establishments have full time supervision either with a Mashgiach or through comprehensive and accurate monitoring of sales. What enquiries and with who are you talking about? And silence from who? KAM, KAS and AKO their umbrella organisation also does not take up my offer to publicly recant when I am assured that legitimate Halchic practices are employed to provide certification. See, he changes the subject to evade and avoid answering the question How is the level of supervision at Eshel, Yumis, or Kosher Classique any different to those you protest about? You should ask that of Zavdiels, using hard cheese, operated by a non-Shomer Shabbos - and I have publicised this in the Adass where as a consequence many no longer eat there I'm asking about Eshel and Kosher Classique. Both meat establishments, not dissimilar to the ones you protest about. They are owned and operated by Ehrilicher Yidden; and Adass, and many other agencies, deems that adequate. I shall elaborate - someone who is a well established member of an ultra-orthodox community, will be faced with tremendous humiliation and derision - indeed his entire family will suffer - if he is found to be cheating the Kashrus system. This does not guarantee compliance but it does offer a fair degree of security which Halcha recognises and accepts. This however, does not apply to someone who lives outside a strictly religious community, even if they are Shomrei Shabbos and most certainly when they are not Shomrei Shabbos. You said that the Kashrus of these KAM and KAS establishment is not acceptable. Are you questioning the Yiddishkeit of all these operators? Kashrus makes demands where businesses are concerned I am asking why YOU pointed out these establishments in your posted protest. I'm not talking about Adass or other agencies. I am talking about YOUR comment. So am I Kashrus makes demands where businesses are concerned, which may well be invasive and personal What are you saying? Do the operators of the establishments I criticise, Daven with a Minyan every day Do you know for a fact that they don't? In this regard one must be on the active side of being seen to do the right thing. I make a point of being seen in the Adass learning every day from about 8am till about 1pm In these cases the onus is clearly upon the proprietors to ensure they earn trust by being seen to be a regular part of the community. They are seen by their community, every day, three times daily, engaged in all the religious community events You have questioned the Kashrus of various businesses in a public forum. I want to know on what basis you have done that? I just told you I also infer confirmation from your responses, that these businesses do not have full time Hashgacha nor does KAM have access to their books, nor do their owners display the basics of living a Frum Ehrlicher lifestyle. Of course they have access to the business books. These businesses have nothing to hide. You have no idea of the level of supervision in these businesses, yet you attack them. So KAM can and do confirm that as much Kosher meat that goes out matches the amount of Kosher meat coming in? They have full access to every part of these businesses. Please answer my question Anything they want to see, will be shown to them. Please answer my question As I said, they have full access. You have not answered my question Of course I have. There is no part of these businesses that is hidden from them. Please tell me that KAM can and do verify that the amount of Kosher meat leaving these businesses is reconciled with the amount of Kosher meat coming in to them They have access to everything. Nothing is hidden from them. In these cases the onus is clearly upon the proprietors to ensure they earn trust by being seen to be a regular part of the community. They are seen by their community, every day, three times daily, engaged in all the religious community events I will not do this without your permission - but would you be comfortable with this conversation being in the public arena? No, because going on your debate with N, you don't answer direct questions in the public arena. As for Eshel and Kosher Classique being Ehrlicher Yidden, so was the butcher from Monsey. You saw what happened there. Have a good night Meir. thank you. I agree with you about Monsey etc. however, within the Halachic framework, this is still acceptable according to many Poskim. The arrangements I have protested about are not. so after all his bluster he will not put his name to his comments - and I don't blame him, who would want to put his name to such silly, misdirected, evasive and ineffective thoughts? |
